My first mock draft of 2024 is now up for subscribers to The Athletic.
Keith Law: So you say I got a funny face. Klawchat.
Mike R: I loved the “Thick as a Brick” reference at the top of the last chat.
Keith Law: I was a big Jethro Tull fan when I was in college, then kind of lost interest for a while. They used “Teacher” in Baby Reindeer (deserves an Emmy for best use of a song in a limited series) and it got me back into them in the last few weeks.
J: Cleveland clearly likes-and is good at-acquiring and developing hit tool driven 2B. Assuming they have Condon and Bazzana graded equally do you think they should double down on that profile or take the player who’s profile would be unique in the org
Keith Law: They should take whoever they think is the best player. Period. You don’t pick first very often and you don’t want to screw it up like the Phils did in 2016.
James: With respect to James Wood, outside of the improved numbers, have you seen or gotten reports that he’s actually taken a step forward in some of the areas of concern that you had for him coming into this season?
Keith Law: His slider recognition seems to be way, way improved from last year. I’m a little skeptical of any player’s improved plate discipline with the ABS in play in AAA, but he seems to have made a real change.
Rick: I know this is about 2024, but as an Astros fan with a likely high pick, how strong is the 2025 draft?
Keith Law: I have no idea. I avoid worrying about next year’s draft until the current one is over, especially since such early impressions are often way off.
Neal: I’m a White Sox fan trying to warm up to the idea of taking a hitter without positional value (to be fair-our guys don’t really hit at the less valuable positions either). I saw Jac as 3 doubles this year. Is this a no wheels kind of slugger? I know he’s hit a lot of home runs, but Condon has 18 doubles by comparison. Thanks!
Keith Law: It’s a very all-or-nothing approach for Cags and I think that’s why some teams are just not on him in the top ten. He swings a lot, he chases a lot, and he’s trying to pull everything. That’s how you end up with all singles and homers but very very few 2b/3b – and you’re correct to worry about what it means going forward.
Punk in Drublic: any updates to the profiles of Owen Cassie, Thayron Liranzo, or Cam Collier based on their 2024 season?
Keith Law: I think all 3 have been pretty much as expected so far, other than Liranzo hitting a little worse on BIP. Was hoping Caissie would cut down on the K’s with the benefit of ABS in AAA.
Drew: It’s not Memorial Day and there are already two public videos of the Nationals coaching staff and CJ Abrams disagreeing about his approach at the plate. 1) how much should an MLB team be telling a player how to swing (feels very Stanford’y) and 2) how concerning should it be that there is such a visible disagreement between the staff and best player?
Keith Law: I hate that stuff becoming public regardless of the player and org – that belongs behind closed doors, IMO. It doesn’t reflect well on the coaching staff, including the manager. That said, it is absolutely the coaching staff’s job to work with players on their swings and their approaches.
Punk in Drublic: It feels like based on his stat line Jonah Tong has shown some marked improvement this season (specifically with his reduction of walks). Have you heard anything about him imparting a significant way or is it more SSS?
Keith Law: Yep, he’s legit. Would probably be a top 100 guy at this point. Fastball is easily plus in every way.
Dan: With Mitchell Parker and Jake Irving doing well (111 and 128 ERA+, respectively), Andry Lara blowing up seemingly out of nowhere–are the Nationals actually developing pitchers?
Keith Law: No – Parker’s start to his career looks like a raging fluke. He’s giving up more hard contact than the opponents’ avg would imply and is lucky he hasn’t allowed more homers. Both he and Irvin have large platoon splits already, and I would expect that to get exposed as teams stack lineups with LHB.
Sam: How much success does a prospect need to have with unconventional mechanics/skill set before it stops being a concern?
Keith Law: Kind of depends on the mechanics/skill in question. For pitchers with weird deliveries – and this year’s draft has a LOT – I think you focus more on the stuff, and how it plays, and make small adjustments based on your concerns about the delivery, rather than just saying “NOPE” to a guy like Yesavage, who I don’t think has ever had an arm issue and who is dominating with the FB/split. I think it’s more fair to be skeptical of, say, a hitter with a really unusual swing (Chase Delauter comes to mind, although the poor guy is hurt again), because that seems to be way more of an impediment in the majors than an unusual delivery.
Keith Law: Sorry for the non-answer.
Paul in SF: Thanks for all the hard work! This draft doesn’t have the top 5 of last year, so comparatively, how many “TOP 25” guys do you see overall? I would assume Condon and Bazzana, but anyone else? Just curious as to the difference at top.
Keith Law: That’s probably it. And I’m not totally sure that either of those guys cracks last year’s top 5.
M: Christopher Morel’s plate discipline has really improved – walk rate way up, K rate real down, some bad BABIP luck this year. OTOH his defense has been horrendous and he is on pace for 1 WAR again. Is this a player worth investing in?
Keith Law: I think he’s a DH. I did notice the plate discipline stuff you mentioned … he’s also hitting the ball on the ground a decent amount more often than last year, and I wonder if that’s all connected, that he’s trading some whiff for some less favorable contact. If Shaw, who’s also had some awful BABIP luck, performs well enough to get to the majors this summer, he should get the 3B job.
Matt: I noticed Skenes pitched 4 innings but had like 20 pitches that were over 100 mph. Wouldn’t it be better if he threw 96 but was able to go 6 or 7 innings? Or is there not a big difference in 4-5 mph with regards to stress on the arm? It just seems ill advised to throw as hard as you can all the time.
Keith Law: In theory, yes, I agree with you, but the unknowable variable here is how much it taxes Skenes’ arm to throw 100 versus 96. I’m hoping that the splinker helps take some of the pressure off him to throw 100, because the four-seamer doesn’t play as well at the lower end of his range – it doesn’t have much ride or run, while the splinker has a lot more vertical break and I think hitters are going to have a really hard time hitting it anywhere but into the ground.
Mj: Is Brett Bateman a prospect? No power at all, but gets on base at a really high clip and is fast. Or am I just dreaming of lead off men of my youth?
Keith Law: I’d really have to see him do something in AA given his age/experience before buying into it.
SCG: Keith, first of all, thanks for all your work put and also for the chats! Do you see Vance Honeycutt going in the first two rounds? Is it possible he moves into the first round?
Keith Law: It is possible he goes in the first, but on merit he’s a second rounder, and I know teams are well aware of his holes at the plate. He’s at a 30% K rate in the ACC this year, and everyone remembers Jud Fabian, who is punching out too often while repeating AA this year.
Keith Law: It’s a similar profile: ++ power, ++ CF defense, too much whiff.
Braydon: In your mock you said the class overall is one of the weakest you can remember. How does the Top 11 specifically compare to the top of recent drafts?
Keith Law: It’s weaker. A strong top of the draft will nearly always color our collective opinion of a draft.
Nervous Flyball Pitcher: Your latest mock has the Orioles pointing to several position players, but with Burnes heading out of town, DL Hall gone, and control/command question marks on Povich and McDermott, which pitchers would you have them draft?
Keith Law: I’d have them take the best player available, and in my mock I project what I believe teams will do, not what they should do. I don’t think the O’s have taken a pitcher in the first round under Elias, and I know from mutual acquaintances that the Appel-Aiken-Whitley picks have soured him on doing so again. (Who could blame him?)
Z Chow: Big fan of your work, Keith. Do you collect any baseball cards or memorabilia at all?
Keith Law: I do not. I’m not much for collecting; I do have a large board game collection, but I’d only say about 8-10 of them are ones I have “collected” versus games I like and think I might play again. I have a first edition of Egizia, for example, that is worth a decent amount, and the second edition changed some of the rules and the board in a way I don’t care for, so I’m hanging on to this.
Chris: What kind of trade package would you be comfortable sending over for Luis Robert? Vs what would you be asking for if you were the white Sox?
Keith Law: They should ask for the Juan Soto deal (the first one, with Wood and Gore and Abrams). He’s got three years left after this one, including two club options, and that is worth a TON – he’s under control but you have the choice to walk away if something goes wrong.
William C: What can the Athletics reasonably expect in return for Mason Miller? Follow up, what would you give up for him? I figure the answers differ given your thoughts on closers.
Keith Law: If I’m trading for Miller, I’m valuing him as if he had two years of control left, because his injury history says expecting anything beyond that is pure fantasy. Even that might be optimistic but if you think he’s only good for another half-season you’re just not trading for him.
Heather: Do you ever watch college baseball on television, or is that just a completely useless way of scouting?
Keith Law: I watch it but it’s not great for scouting – the angles are all wrong – more for just getting the feel for how the players are playing rather than breaking down mechanics. Can certainly see how a player is approaching an at bat, for example.
Matt: What’s with all these athletes being MAGA Chuds? Schilling, Butker, LT, Mariano Rivera, etc. It’s amazing, really.
Keith Law: Those guys don’t all have equivalent beliefs, mind you. But I think they all have similar religious backgrounds, and for some reason, the evangelical movement has moved very, very far to the right – even though I think that’s inconsistent with the secular aspects of Christ’s philosophy (omitting questions of his divinity).
Jeremy: Thru 119 PA, Rowdy Tellez is batting .178/.252/.234 (.486) with a 42 OPS+,42WRC+ after 351 PA batting .215/.291/.376 (.667) with a 81OPS+, 78WRC+ in 2023. How long will the Pirates take to finally start playing him less, and why hasn’t it happened yet?
Keith Law: I don’t know, and I don’t know.
Keith Law: Tellez has over 2000 MLB PA at this point and he’s almost dead replacement level. You have to have someone better than him in AAA or you’ve failed.
Santaspirt: I either miss your chats and remember the question I had for you, or I show up to your chats and forget what I wanted to ask you. There is no in between. Anyway, great mock. I only have the Athletic because of your writing.
Keith Law: Thank you! Maybe you’ll remember before 2 pm.
Rafael G.: What is Coby Mayo’s Ceiling? He is hitting the cover off the ball, but does he have a chance for passable defense at third?
Keith Law: If you’re betting on an ultimate position, I’d say RF > 1B > 3B. But I don’t think it’s impossible he stays at third, in a vacuum, assuming he didn’t die from the lack of oxygen. They just have a lot of infielders who are better.
Danny: The Yankees have pushed recent draft picks to play premium positions that the general consensus did not agree (Wells at C, Sweeney staying at SS and Jones in CF). Do you think they could do the same with Jordan, Waldschmidt or Moore?
Keith Law: Yes. Even when I don’t agree that the player can stay there, I think it’s a smart developmental approach. What do you lose by playing a guy at the toughest (and most valuable) possible position he could play? Very little, I think. And maybe you prove the consensus wrong.
Josh: Assume if the Guardians go well below slot at 1:1 it’s just a money saving move and a mistake? Those vanity senate runs by Matt Dolan can’t be cheap.
Keith Law: It would be to go after some over-slot guys with later picks. I’ve heard several times that this is their plan. I just don’t think this draft offers the same quantity of over-slot candidates that last year did, or even 2021 when the Pirates took Henry Davis well under slot and then got two of their top prospects today in Chandler and Solometo.
Joe: Possible we are seeing a delayed breakout for Clarke Schmidt or Luis Gil?
Keith Law: I had Schmidt on my breakout list this year so of course I’m hoping that’s true. Gil has always had a great arm, but he’s leading the AL in walks, and it’s especially acute vs LHB.
Dr. Bob: People complain about the Dodgers pricing other teams out of competition. I understand that contracts like they gave to Ohtani and Yamamoto might not fit their budgets, but they could spend much less money to build scouting and player development systems like L.A. has. That’s how they get players like Andy Pages and Teoscar Hernandez.
Keith Law: That so few teams have maintained scouting, development, and R&D staffs like the Dodgers is baffling to me. We can all joke about Dodgers Devil Magic, but jesus it’s right there in front of you. They employ more people in those departments, and they have those departments working together as well as any organization in baseball. It’s not a secret. If you made me a GM or President of BB Ops, I would copy them. Like, print the org chart, change the names, rock and roll.
addoeh: Ryan Sloan a second rounder or compensatory round candidate?
Keith Law: I’d say between picks 20 and 40. Over-slot if he gets past 30. I was supposed to see him last night but the rain was coming so I came home and saw Bryce Meccage instead.
Geoff: What is going on with Bazzana all of a sudden becoming the top guy in most recent mock drafts? Is it solely because of that report from ESPN? Or is there something that is going around that everyone knows about?
Keith Law: What report from ESPN? Bazzana’s been a 1-1 candidate all spring, and he’s had a tremendous year. He and Condon are the only two realistic candidates for 1-1 in my view, although I mentioned a third name in the mock today because I heard Cleveland might consider it.
Keith Law: BTW, I was able to see a live feed of Konnor Griffin’s game last night. It was tied, and with no one on and two outs, Griffin’s coach intentionally walked a batter – the potential winning run – only to see him come around and score. It has to be one of the worst unforced managerial errors I’ve ever seen.
Gabriel: Keith you were always a fan of Mathew Lugo. Is his current production a sign of him finally meeting expectations or is it just a player that is now too old for AA
Keith Law: He’s repeating the level and still striking out too often, but I do think the power surge is real. He might still find a way to the majors.
Justin Y: Kevin Alcantara just can’t seem to get over the hump it feels like. Is he just going to be a late bloomer?
Keith Law: He’s 21 in AA. He’s younger than most of the college guys about to get drafted.
Troy: Would sending Chourio down be a good idea or is there just not much for him to learn in AAA?
Keith Law: Don’t think he has anything to learn in AAA. The gap between that level and the majors is enormous. Teams have to adjust and be willing to let hitters come up and struggle for a few months as they adjust to better pitching. It was true with Holliday and with Henry Davis and Kjerstad too.
Guest: Hey Keith, thanks for the chat. A’s fan here who thought we should have drafted Shaw but not too upset w/Wilson. How would you rank Shaw last year vs other 2B Bazzana & Wetherholt this year? Thanks
Keith Law: Shaw’s comparable to those guys as hitters, probably more power than Wetherholt, less pure hit tool. Can’t comment on Wetherholt’s defense at this point since he’s barely played the field (and barely moved when he has).
Matt: When Harper was drafted, how did teams know he was a generational talent? What set him aside that everyone knew the Nationals were taking him as opposed to a normal draft where you hope the pick pans out?
Keith Law: We’d seen him against older competition since he was 15. He was as obvious a 1-1 pick as we might ever see.
Dugan: What is going on with Jack Leiter? He seemed to dominate AAA, but has been totally lost in all of his MLB games. Anything in particular going on?
Keith Law: Yeah, his 4-seamer has guys racing to the bat rack. He might as well walk to the plate and put it on a tee. Hitters will tell you if a pitch isn’t any good, and they’re telling us, loudly. At this point I’d send him down and see if he can throw a decent two-seamer because the four-seamer is way too straight and doesn’t have other attributes to make up for it.
David: Do you see any chance Condon or Bazzana fall to Rox at 3? and would they still take one of Smith/Burns if one of those guys were still on the board?
Keith Law: I did outline a scenario like that in the mock. I think they’d take the hitter if one fell.
Justin: You previously had some not so favorable reports about Jacob Gonzalez based on what you saw last year. There’s some talk of changes to his swing along with some pretty solid stats to start the year. Have you noticed a change in his swing and are you feeling better about him going forward?
Keith Law: No. He’s too advanced for high-A anyway and we’re not seeing a big change in outcomes.
Tom: Have you seen Tegan Kuhns pitch and what do you think of him?
Keith Law: Tried to see early, got rained out (2″ in two days), and since then I’ve heard the velocity has tapered. Think he’s slid out of any first-round consideration; there’s already a bias against 6′ HS RHP, and if he’s not showing elite stuff maybe he ends up at NC State and tries to be a top 10 pick in three years.
Matt: Does Max Clark have a chance at AA this year?
Keith Law: I think he’ll finish there.
Adam D.: With the draft class being as weak as it is, who would you say is the “best of the rest” after the top-tier guys? One pitcher and one hitter to look out for?
Keith Law: I’ll do an updated ranking next week – I was going to do one this week and the mock next Wednesday, but decided to switch them – but the hitter would be Tibbs and the pitcher would be Cijntjie.
Luis: Hi Keith! Great content as usual! Any new board games worth checking out to play with my 9 & 12 year old kids ?
Keith Law: Trio, Mycelia, Wandering Towers are the best fits for that age group I’ve played recently. I need to play Pixies again but liked it on first play.
cross: when you say you have teams on college bats, do you look at their draft history and traits that they like when you link them to a bat in said draft or do you go off of intel? (asking for the marlins / blue jays)
Keith Law: Both, but draft history only matters if the decision-makers are the same.
Jackie: Do you watch “The Amazing Race”? The contestants were in the Dominican Republic last week, and Bartolo Colon made an appearance. He looked good — I’d say about 30-40 pound less than his playing weight. Truth be told, I had no idea he had finally retired. If you had told me he was starting for the Mets last week, I would’ve believed you.
Keith Law: I was hoping he’d stage one more comeback because he was the last MLB player older than I am. (I do not watch the show.)
Matt: What’s really odd is these teams skimping on R&D will also go out and overspend on free agents. Like, you have the money. Put it to good use.
Keith Law: Right, I’d rather have all of that staff than an $8 million free agent who’s unlikely to deliver the same ROI.
Guest: What are your thoughts on Christian Scott? Looking like a legit #3 SP?
Keith Law: I could see that. I said he had above-average starter potential when I wrote him up this winter. But he’s never even thrown 90 innings in a season, so I have a hard time just saying he’s a legit #3 when we assume that pitcher is at least throwing 150-160 innings.
Dugan: Is Matt Wilkinson just overpowering lower levels, or are the skills there real and ready to play at higher levels?
Keith Law: I know in juco he was in the upper 80s and succeeded by changing speeds to get inexperienced hitters out. I don’t have any info from this year, sorry, but I’d be shocked if he was suddenly throwing gas.
Mike: How far out has Jenkins injury pushed him? Does this delay his progress by a year, or it doesn’t matter all that much? thanks,
Keith Law: Walker? Don’t think this matters in the long run.
Richard: Is Luke Holman a back end starter or does he have mid-rotation upside?
Keith Law: Delivery is really iffy for durability. I know he had a longer arm stroke before going to LSU … maybe someone drafts him and cleans it up enough so that he can be more of a back-end starter.
Justin: If you’re the White Sox, do you trade Robert, Fedde, Crochet, etc?
Keith Law: Yes. Anything that’s not nailed down.
Greg: Have you heard anything about an Owen Murphy breakout? I’m just scouting the stat line but it looks good so far.
Keith Law: No breakout, just a good command/control guy dominating hitters who don’t have the plate discipline to compete. He doesn’t have a swing-and-miss pitch in the arsenal.
J: I struggle with players like James Tibbs. I feel like if there was more confidence that he would be a true middle of the order bat, he would be grouped with Kurtz/Cags. But since he seems to be a tier below them, I’m wondering how valuable is a ~6 hole hitter with negative defensive value?
Keith Law: Is he a 6-hole hitter or maybe a 2-hole guy? I think that’s the question teams are facing. I know models love him.
Marc: Keith, the pirates have chosen to go with a 6-man rotation with the unstated but clearly underlying goal of limiting innings for their young pitchers. Is there any evidence that extending time between starts is good for arm health? Also wondered what you thought of Skenes’s first start in the big leagues. Thanks!
Keith Law: My understanding is that more rest is better than less, but I don’t know of evidence of whether six-man rotations are better than five-man. I’d rather see this, and then guys pitching a little deeper into games, than the alternative of a five-man rotation and Jared Jones coming out at 59 pitches.
Mike: Was hoping you could opine on WVU as a baseball program. Back 10+ years ago when i was there, they barely even had a program. Now with manoah, means, whetherholt and i think a few others, theyre generating a lotta talent. Any idea why?
Keith Law: Being in the Big 12 with a tremendous facility has to help from recruiting to development.
Nick: How does Condon compare to Kris Bryant as a prospect coming out of college?
Keith Law: I think Condon’s a better athlete – little twitchier, might stay up the middle – but Bryant had more raw power. HRs are up all over college baseball this year. Every time I go to a college game and see how the ball flies, I wonder, who’s been screwing with this thing?
Keith Law: That’s all for this week … plans may shift slightly with my upcoming travel but I hope to have a top 100 draft ranking up on Wednesday of next week. Thanks for all of your questions and for reading, as always. Stay safe.
For evangelicals and conservative catholics like Butker, you would find them saying Jesus was too woke. These days you can emphasize the parts of the Bible you like, ignore the parts you want (including the Ten Commandments), and still call yourself a Christian. There are no rules about who can call themselves a Christian. You don’t need to follow the teachings of Jesus, it’s just a way to attach yourself to a larger group of like-minded people.
And then there’s the whole going into a commencement speech without it being about some sort of positive vision. It’s a damaged soul that plans that type of angry diatribe for what should be an uplifting event.
Wait, what?
People are actually surprised that several wealthy athletes (often white males) are “MAGA chuds”?
Why would this be the least bit surprising? I’m surprised there are not more of them willing to be outwardly vocal about it instead of remaining hidden.
This country elected a nauseating president once, nearly elected him again in 2020, and will probably elect him again this year. Half the athletes (or more) in any given sport probably support him and have loathsome views.
As for Butker and his moronic speech – did anyone think to READ his speech beforehand or ask him what he planned to talk about???
Read up on the school that give him the platform. They 100% agreed with every word he said.
Well, that makes sense, I suppose.
Anyway, so, people are shocked and/or outraged that a scummy person with scummy beliefs gave a scummy speech at a scummy school?
In other news, water is wet and circles are round.
This school was recently featured in an article about the rightward shift taking place in US Catholicism. Pretty unsettling stuff.
https://apnews.com/article/catholic-church-shift-orthodoxy-tradition-7638fa2013a593f8cb07483ffc8ed487
For what it’s worth, one of my oldest and best friends is the chair of a department at Benedictine College. He is a practicing Catholic, but he’s pretty progressive. I’ve never heard him talk about the school being as reactionary as it is described in that AP article. I’ll have to ask him specifically about it.
Sorry Frank, should people just say nothing and treat this as a perfectly reasonable position to take?
He regurgitated standard positions of the GOP platform, at a school that supports his views. Seems like a non-news item to me. I think there are more important issues to worry about. What is Butker’s platform, anyway? He occasionally gets invited to a catholic school and preaches to the choir. I’m more concerned with some of the lunatics who actually hold congressional seats, or the lunatic who is likely to hold office starting in January.
A FG kicker with little social or political influence spouting standard GOP nonsense doesn’t really bother me that much. I mean, are there progressive independent thinkers in that audience? I doubt his idiotic speech is going to have any effect on anything. Yes, it’s objectionable. Most of the GOP platform is objectionable. And hundreds or thousands of pro athletes probably have similar views. It sucks, but it’s not exactly news.
My goodness Frank, for a guy who thinks it’s not news, you sure did spend a lot of time and energy commenting on it. Can you send us all your email address so we can reach out and get permission on what we are and aren’t allowed to talk about, as well as what’s news and what’s not?
I joke. It IS news, though. It’s literally all over the news. And not just sports news, it’s crossed over into mainstream news. Most of the country has an opinion on it. I think even YOU do. It’s also okay to be concerned with multiple things at once.
Yes, of course I have an opinion., I clearly stated it already. I disagree with most of what he said, as it typically the case when a devout catholic or republican speaks.
I still don’t see the big news item here. The news item is that Harrison Butker, a relatively popular and well-known football player as far as placekickers go, is a devout catholic and republican. Usually such as player would make this known when interviewed post-game by saying stuff like “praise glory to Jesus for not making that field goal go wide right.” or some nonsense like that.
Given that we know his political and religious affiliations, is anything he said unusual or noteworthy? He said exactly what a devout catholic and devout republican would be expected to say at a graduation ceremony. His saying those things sems no more newsworthy to me than a progressive liberal democrat saying he opposes what Butker said.
Yes, we can be concerned with multiple things at once. Butker saying those things ranks somewhere around 11 millionth on my list of things that I think we should be outraged about.
Butker’s speech occurred at a small school in Kansas. I never would have known about it unless people made such a big deal about it. I and probably millions of others never would have known about this if no one had reported on it. The outrage and reporting has given Butker a much bigger platform then he ever had in the first place.
But, okay, fine. I’ll join in.
“OMG! What he said is horrible! We must cancel him. The Chiefs should cut him. The NFL should suspend him. etc etc etc.”
What does this accomplish?
Most commencement speakers, even conservative ones. use the occasion to encourage the graduates to use their education in the wider world, not to tell half of them, at the ceremony celebrating their accomplishment, to abandon it.
Women and homosexuals are just two groups Butker doesn’t like. He also doesn’t like Jewish people (the part of “Who killed Jesus?), children conceived through IVF or surragates, COVID restrictions, DEI, etc. The only group he seems to like are white, Christian mean who share his views.
“Women and homosexuals are just two groups Butker doesn’t like. He also doesn’t like Jewish people (the part of “Who killed Jesus?), children conceived through IVF or surragates, COVID restrictions, DEI, etc. The only group he seems to like are white, Christian mean who share his views.”
I read all that. Aside from hating Jewish people, this all seems standard for a catholic republican. (The hating Jewish people doesn’t even seem all that odd for a devout catholic.) Yes, it would have been nice if the school had chosen a different speaker who said encouraging things to the students. But it
s not surprising the school chose Butker, given what I have read about the school.
I still think the best way to deal with it is to not make it widespread news, similar to the way sports broadcasts stopped showing fans who run out onto the field during the game. All this uproar is just giving him what he probably wanted – a far wider platform to spout his views.
I’m not sure why people are continuing to point out how messed up Butker’s viewpoints are, as though I ever disputed that notion?
I don’t know what’s going on with the reflexive contrarianism on your part, but having someone tell half of a graduating class, at their commencement, that they should be looking forward to being married and pregnant and that their idea of having a career is “diabolical” seems pretty fucking newsworthy. For whatever it’s worth, seems like he made quite an impression on the women in the audience.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/students-speak-harrison-butkers-uncomfortable-commencement-speech-rcna152789
I am not trying to be contrarian. I am not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. I already stated my objections to the content of his speech.
I am not a contrarian for suggesting that people should not be giving Butker more attention than he deserves.
But I suppose the new definition of “contrarian” is, “not vocally hating someone’s speech with the same magnitude and ferocity as other people.”
I am glad to see that some women in the audience didn’t care for his speech.
Look, his speech was monumentally stupid. I disagree with almost all of it. And it was a terrible time and place for such a speech.
My point is, the blame should lie with the school. Did they not vet his speech beforehand? If not, then the school screwed up. Or, as some others have suggested, maybe the school was on board with his speech. In which case, the school is to blame.
Rich white wealthy male athlete giving an idiotic speech in which he seems to show disdain for lots of other groups of people? This is not surprising to me. That he was allowed to give that speech when and where he gave the speech is, but again, that’s on the school, not him.
I think it’s newsworthy when someone gives a particularly repugnant hate speech at commencement, as those are meant to be aspirational and uplifting. The vast majority of conservative and liberal invited speakers focus on the aspirational. I’m fairly cynical, but I don’t believe that much of the speech resonated with a majority of conservatives, and it’s important in my mind for non-evangelical and/or less socially-conservative members to see that. And finally, if this convinces some high schoolers who are set on going to a Catholic or religious college to not attend Benedictine in favor of one that does not endorse those views, that’s a good outcome as well.
@ Salty Scientist:
I agree with most of what you said, while also standing by my point that I believe the coverage and outrage was overblown.
We do not all need to be outraged at the exact same thins or to the exact same extent and magnitude. At least, that is my opinion. To me, to suggest otherwise is to engage in conformist groupthink. I feel as though people are rallying against me here, even though we are all basically on the same side, just because I am slightly less bothered by something than the other forum members here.
As for whether that speech resonated with other conservatives – maybe I am more jaded than you and others are. I have not met these other, less extreme conservatives and republicans. Every conservative or republican I have met or known (or seen on the news) has pretty much exactly the opinions expressed by Butker in his speech.
If someone does NOT share those opinions, why would that person support the current GOP, which clearly is lobbying hard for [pretty much everything Butker said? If someone supports the current conservative / republican platform, then to me, by definition, that person does NOT support diversity, equality, inclusion, or any of the other beliefs Butker ranted against.
Maybe I just see things too much in black and white instead of shades of gray. For example, if I meet someone who says, “I’m a Libertarian but I support the war on drugs,” I would say to that person, “you are not a Libertarian. You cannot be a Libertarian and support the war on drugs.”
So, yes, by all means, discourage people from going to Benedictine college (or however it is spelled; I do not even care to look it up). If the college supports Butker’s absurd speech, then the school is the “bad guy” here, not Butker.
As far as catholics and/or Christians – well, my experience has been that the ones I can tolerate talking to are the ones who never talk about their faith or religion. Because, the ones who do talk about it generally piss me off with annoying and absurd beliefs and opinions that generally involve telling other people of different religions how they should act and live their lives. And I have no patioence or tolerance for that shit. I am okay with being intolerant of intolerance.
So, perhaps the differing interpretations of the magnitude of Butker’s speech stems from different life experiences and different levels of jadedness. I just haven’t come to expect much more from conservatives and republicans than what Butker delivered.
I thought this was a good read:
https://andscape.com/features/why-harrison-butkers-commencement-speech-comments-wont-negatively-impact-his-career/
This is, to some extent, what I was alluding to.
Where is the outrage over the blatant hypocrisy over how Kaepernick was treated versus how Butker is being treated?
Where is the outrage over how the Chiefs are handling this? Why haven’t the chiefs cut him? If a scrubby player clinging to the 53-man roster did what Butker did, that player would be long gone. But Butker is a great kicker, so… he stays. With no consequences. Kaepernick, meanwhile, has watched from the sidelines as literally dozens of inept quarterbacks have been entrusted to lead NFL teams with nowhere near the skillset Kaepernick has.
So, it has been said that “It’s okay to focus on more than one problem at a time.”
Yeah, but society is not good at that. People seem to have forgotten about Kaepernick. What happened to him is disgusting and despicable.
On a similar note (but a completely unrelated topic), now the current thing is the Isreal-Hamas war. There’s all this outrage over what Israel is doing. Interestingly, nobody seems to be talking about the Russia-Ukraine war anymore. Did I miss something? Did Russia retreat and/or surrender? I don’t think so, but based on the absence of media coverage of that war since October 7th, one might reasonably make that assumption.
So, I give credit to the above author for providing some relevant context to Butker’s speech other than just talking about how outrageous it was (which it indeed was, no doubt).
There is a misconception that Catholic’s hate the Jewish people because they crucified Jesus. I was taught in Catholic School that Jesus had to die and that the Jewish people were the chosen people. Therefore, we should not have any ill will towards the Jewish people. I don’t know any Catholic that holds those beliefs or have ever heard that said in any Catholic parish.
I’ve known some Catholics who would fit in with the Westboro Baptist Church with the exception of believing that Jews were the chosen people. (And I should say that I know a great many more Catholics who are not hateful in the least).