East Valley eats.

One music note (pun intended) before I get to the food: Arcade Fire’s new album The Suburbs (best album I’ve heard in 2010) and their debut album Funeral are both just $5 as mp3 downloads on amazon.com, probably just through the end of the month (Sunday night). Their second album, Neon Bible, is just $5.99 as a download, but I don’t think that disc measures up – you could buy “Keep the Car Running” and call it a day.

Jason Grey has been trying to get me to try Rancho de Tia Rosa in Mesa for at least three years now, but it was never convenient until we moved to this part of the Valley. (When we were here for spring training, we’d stay in north Scottsdale, near Kierland, so heading out to eastern Mesa for dinner was a haul and would have screwed with my daughter’s bed time.) The restaurant absolutely lived up to expectations, especially since, like Ortega’s in San Diego, Tia Rosa makes their own old-school flour tortillas, the biggest delimiter for me between an ordinary Mexican restaurant and an above-average one. We’ve been there once so far, although we’re going again soon, and the portions are generous with very fresh ingredients. I ordered the carne asada, figuring I’d start with a classic dish (the menu has a mix of classics and modern Mexican cuisine); the flavor was outstanding, deep, smoky, not too salty, but unfortunately the meat had dried out a little, probably because it was slow-cooked all day and then held a little too warm for service. I don’t pay extra for ambiance, but my wife was impressed by the building and décor inside; I’m more about the tortillas and salsas and bright flavors, enough that I’m willing to give them a pass on the dryness of the main course.

In downtown Mesa on Main Street, there’s a small lunch place called Mangos that apparently keeps inconsistent hours for dinner, but for lunch it’s more of a nicer twist on a taco shop. Their fish taco is the best I’ve ever had, hot, crispy, non-greasy, with just enough seasoning, and their aguas frescas were outstanding – I went with the cashier’s recommendation, a mix of watermelon and pineapple. The shrimp taco wasn’t as good as the fish taco, mostly because it seemed undersalted, but all ingredients on both tacos were fresh, and the tacos plus beans and rice ran about $11 for more food than I could think about eating. Mangos has a sister restaurant in downtown Chandler called El Zocalo that is just a poor imitation of Tia Rosa, as expensive but with inferior product; you’re paying mostly for setting and atmosphere, and I’d rather pay for the food.

The Urban Grocery and Wine Bar at the Phoenix Public Market doesn’t have an extensive menu, but the market itself is worth checking out. At the grocery counter you can order a few sandwich items, including a roast beef sandwich that feels artisanal through all of its ingredients, from the baguette to the spicy mustard to the unusual pickles, and the sandwich is generously filled. My only complaint was that the roast beef was sliced thickly and incorrectly, resulting in a very tough product that detracted from the experience, but if that’s not the norm, it’s a steal at $7.

For pizza, I’d still call Grimaldi’s the tops among casual places in the area, but Florencia’s on Ray in Ahwautukee (near 40th) does a very solid rendition of New York-style pizza, with just a little too much sauce separating them from NYC slice-dom. The Italian sausage had a nice pronounced fennel note, and the sauce isn’t sweet as it too often is outside of New York. The pesto was a little oily for me but had a good balance of basil, garlic, and cheese. The garden salad, while basic, has always included very fresh ingredients, and the homemade balsamic dressing is solid if a touch thin.

We’ve tried three local dessert options, two of which are gelaterias. The winner there is Angel Sweet, on Chandler Blvd just east of Dobson, tucked in a strip mall with a Starbucks and a Basha’s. The owner of Angel Sweet – whom we’ve never seen – is reportedly Japanese, but I think he has an Italian soul given how incredibly smooth and precise his gelatos are. The super dark chocolate does not boast without cause, as it is about as black as the last banana with strong cocoa flavor, while the mint is actually a straciatella with an unusually round, full mint flavor. The panna cotta and crème caramel are similar, but I prefer the darker caramel notes in the panna cotta. The coconut, one of my two bellwether flavors along with dark chocolate, is bright and fresh and not too sweet. My wife and daughter are both big fans of the seasonal pumpkin pie flavor.

The other gelateria we’ve found is Enzo’s, on Ray Road, run by an emigrant from Italy who also pulls what looks like a legit shot of espresso. He’s extremely friendly, but unfortunately the gelato we had was slightly grainy and didn’t have the same powerful flavors as Angel Sweet’s. Che peccato.

Cake Cafe on Ray Rd in Ahwautukee is primarily a cupcake shop that also sells custom cakes, typically selling a dozen or so cupcake flavors on any given day. I’d call it fringe-average, not quite as good as Sprinkles (which to me is the definition of solid-average, useful since it’s likely some of you have tried it) because the cupcakes tend to be slightly dry, and the frosting portions are a little meager. The buttercreams are smooth and rich with solid flavors, as good as my own but made with (I assume) less swearing. At $2 apiece they’re actually a good value relative to what most cupcake shops charge.

Finally, to the burger debate. It started on Twitter when someone asked if I’d tried Smash Burger, which I did shortly afterwards, but devolved into a partisan Five Guys/In-n-Out argument, which I assume was geographically motivated. Smash Burger itself was a big disappointment; other than the fact that the burger was extremely hot when it reached the table, there was nothing good about the meal. The burger was greasy, but not with the rich, fulfilling flavor of beef fat – it tasted of the grill, of a thousand burgers and chicken breasts and other who-knows-what made before, a stale, slightly burned flavor that made me feel like I was in a rundown diner at 1 in the morning. The fries, covered in a rosemary-garlic mixture, weren’t fresh-cut and probably went from a freezer bag to the deep fryer. With In-n-Out here and Five Guys invading, I see no reason to think Smash Burger can succeed. Then again, I have no idea how Burger King still exists, so who knows.

As for Five Guys and In-n-Out, I stand by my assessment that Five Guys offers a better burger. Most of the counterarguments I’ve heard revolve around the In-n-Out burger package, not the meat itself. When you cook an extremely thin, tightly packed hamburger to well done, as In-n-Out does, you’re going to end up with a dry product. In-n-Out compensates for that by putting Thousand Island dressing, which at its heart is just jarred mayonnaise, on the bun, which adds fat back to the sandwich and keeps the bottom bun from getting soggy, but the burger itself is as dry as it gets. If you don’t believe me, try this experiment: Order a plain burger at both In-n-Out and Five Guys – no cheese, no condiments, no vegetation. Just the burger. Five Guys also cooks their burgers to well done – I wish they would stop at medium well – but the burger is thicker and loosely packed, so it retains some moisture and fat. I just don’t see any comparison.

Comments

  1. Adam P. Boyd

    I still say you need to try Oregano’s, a good local chain. There is one in old town, Tempe, Mesa. Also, for good homemade Mexican you cannot beat Carolina’s @ 1202 E Mohave Street in Phoenix, AZ.

    More recs: Pizzeria Bianco, Mastro’s Ocean Club in Kierland Commons.

    And, IMO, Five Guys is way better than In-n-Out when it comes to burgers.

  2. I found In-n-Out to be pretty good for a fast food burger – certainly I prefer it over McDonald’s or Burger King – but it’s still just a fast food burger. Five Guys, and to a lesser extent Culver’s, are capable of doing QSR with burgers that are clearly more freshly made and taste that way. As you say, there’s really no comparison between the two types.

  3. Have you checked out Los Dos Molinos yet? I think they classify the food as “New Mexican” cuisine, but they specialize in the extremely spicy. If you are into that, I highly recommend the carne adovada, but if you want a more mild meal the carnitas are tremendous.

  4. Have you tried Guiseppe’s on 28th (www.giuseppeson28th.com)? Saw it and it got rave reviews. I’ve personally never eaten been to the restaurant.

  5. I agree the Five Guys burger is better, but their bun needs work. When I had it, the bun got soaked and fell to pieces while I was still eating the burger.

  6. While you are in Arizona you ought to try the Heart Attack Grill. Nothing healthy about the place.

    http://www.heartattackgrill.com/

  7. Brian - Gilbert, AZ

    I am guessing that you live in the Ahwautukee area…Have you had Jersey Mike’s subs yet? My wife and I find them to be awesome! There is one on Chandler Blvd next to the Starbucks in the Kohl’s Plaza (near 48th street I think). You and your wife could split a giant…which the Italian sells for 9.95 and is a good sandwich. The cold cuts are cut fresh when you order…and try the italian Mike’s way…

    For beer…there is a Total Wine & More off of Warner and I-10, in the Dick’s plaza…something like 1000 beers and 8000 wines…well worth the visit and the best prices I have seen…Try the Kasteel Donker and Rouge.

    Anyway, welcome to the valley. I look forward to seeing more of your recommendations!

  8. I agree that Five Guys is a juicier burger, but there is something in the flavor of In-N-Out that I love, and you can’t quite get it at Five Guys. Only recently having been introduced to Five Guys (Huntington Beach just got one), I need more time to make a firm decision, but as of now I’d say I’m a big fan of both, though they’re very different burger experiences.

  9. Five guys might have a slight meat advantage, but In-and-Outs bun, fresh lettuce and tomato and grilled onions far surpass five guys slop fest. In and Out also takes the cake when it comes to presentation.

  10. Mark S – I would contend that a burger’s bun SHOULD disintegrate during eating….otherwise the burger’s too dry not good.

  11. While the 5 guys patty is definitely better, measuring the two restaurants on that ground is like comparing a ceasar salad by just looking at the lettuce and cheese. You don’t order a burger plain at either, the test is the complete taste experience and 5 guys just can’t compete there.

  12. I cannot agree with your negative opinion on In-N-Out. I was in So Cal recently and posted a picture of the burgers on my Facebook page. One friend noted that the actual food looked like the pictures that other fast food places put out. In-N-Out burgers must be eaten with lettuce and tomato for the effect of the whole sandwich. If you think, however, that Five Guys are better, then I will have to try them out. We just got our first one in the area recently.

  13. Couldn’t agree more on Five Guys. Juicy and delicious. In’N’Out was good, but I felt it was too dry as well. A new joint has popped up, at least on the East Coast, that is quite good: Z Burger. It’s kind of a Five Guys rip off, but they also do shakes, which are pretty solid, and their burger is slightly less greasy than Five Guys, but still has the taste. That is the one knock I always had on Five Guys: it left me in a deep food coma for a solid hour. Then again, I usually pounded a regular cheese and a mini bacon cheese, so I wasn’t doing myself any favors.

  14. you can order your in-n-out Medium Rare, unlike five guys. problem solved.

  15. Even if the burgers are a wash, surely the five guys fries put them far and away over the top.

  16. “Their second album, Neon Bible, is just $5.99 as a download, but I don’t think that disc measures up – you could buy “Keep the Car Running” and call it a day.”

    I disagree, Keith. There are several standout songs on Neon Bible. “Intervention,” “Black Wave/Bad Vibrations,” “Ocean of Noise,” “The Well and the Lighthouse,” “(Antichrist Television Blues),” and “No Cars Go” are excellent, addicting tracks. To each his own, though.

  17. The Five Guys fries are probably the best fast food fries out there. Way better than the In-n-Out fries.

  18. brian in Tolleson

    Glad you finally made it to Tia’s. Our favorite restaurant in Phoenix by a lot.

    I think In-n-out is better and I think your test fails based on merit. We cannot take elements out of an entire experience of burgerness. Their entire model needs to be accounted for which is a huge plus. They are customer facing entirely which is very unusual in the QSR world.

    Besides, if we take your example to an extreme, we could apply it to baseball and simply suggest that the Rangers are better because their best player is better than the Giants best player. Clearly one best player is not a whole package as evidenced by the 2-0 lead. I don’t think we can rate one chain higher than another based upon one element in the entire package of comparison.

    Oh, and five guys blatantly ripped off the concept of in-n-out.

  19. Pizzeria Bianco is the most authentic pizza I have had outside of Italy.

  20. Brian in Tolleson, how can a burger place “rip off the concept of in-n-out”? How many different ways can you do a burger, or a burger joint? There’s fast food, middlebrow and high end. There’s fresh and there’s frozen. What’s to rip off?

    I live in California and have an In-N-Out within walking distance, but just traveled home to Ohio where Five Guys has been making inroads. In-N-Out is good, but Five Guys is great. The meat tastes better. The fries are better. As far as different offerings, even the free peanuts at Five Guys are roasted to the perfect degree, slightly longer than usual and a bit more caramelized and sweeter. I would hit Five Guys every chance I got if I had one in town. I don’t do that with In-N-Out here.

  21. I think In-n-out is better

    A valid position, one with which I disagree.

    and I think your test fails based on merit.

    Incorrect. And your subsequent analogy is utter nonsense, a poor attempt to bridge the gap between two of my spheres of writing.

    A baseball team is not a separable product, but a burger is. A customer at either Five Guys or In-n-Out is free to customize his burger as he sees fit. A customer at a baseball game can not select the nine players he’d like to see in the lineup that night, although he’d probably do a better job than a certain AL manager I won’t name right now.

    I, for one, do not care for mayonnaise on a hamburger (if we’re adding fat, give me some avocado, please), but an In-n-Out burger without “sauce” is dry and unappetizing.

    Back to the core argument, the difference between the two chains is in the quality of the burger itself – not the sandwich, but the way the meat is handled and cooked. I see no rational argument in favor of In-n-Out’s compressed, skinny patty. You may prefer the sandwich In-n-Out offers, but, again, that’s not the question. The question is the beef itself. If you think In-n-Out’s sandwich is superior because you like their toppings or their service, think of how much better it would be if the toppings and service were the same but the beef itself was handled and cooked as Five Guys does it.

    Jon/Adam: I’ve been to Pizzeria Bianco and agree wholeheartedly.

  22. Brian In Tolleson

    Isn’t it funny how analogies always break down upon scrutiny?

    I simply reject your core argument out of hand as being unfaithful to the experience of being in a restaurant. You’re simply comparing the two burger patties as the only test that matter in comparison between the two chains. That’s unfair.

    In this particular case where both concepts are excellent and preference between the two is up to individual tastes, the entire experience matters. Are the bathroom clean? Servers friendly? Can you see the food being made and handled? Do you know what the food is made of? Again I think your argument fails on merit because one cannot simply judge a product based upon one element. I agree it is a very important element, but it is not the only item that matters.

    To further underscore: in-n-out owns nearly their entire supply chain. Five guys is a franchise that has to source based upon local availability. In-n-out treats their employees incredibly well throughout their company on any level. Five guys treats their employees based upon the whims of a franchisee. Etc. etc. etc.
    These things matter. A lot.

  23. “Again I think your argument fails on merit because one cannot simply judge a product based upon one element. I agree it is a very important element, but it is not the only item that matters.”

    Brian, it’s a *burger joint*. Keith is judging the burger, as most people do. For the vast majority of folks out there, that’s *all* that matters. It’s all well and good to try and make it about more than that, and maybe it’s about more than that to you. It doesn’t have to be to anyone else, though, and it baffles me why you want to force that perspective on people, or have them rearrange their priorities to suit you.

    Your sports analogy was interesting, because indeed one element can doom a team — Vlad Guerrero’s defense, or a team’s shoddy bullpen, or an offense’s bad on-base percentage:

    — It can be aesthetically displeasing, in the sense of looking at a team and saying “this is lacking and they need more of this.”

    — Or, in a zero-sum competition between two restaurants where one decides that there is a winner and a loser, like in a baseball game, it can cost them the game — that one feels that this element is a deal-breaker and iit’s enough to “win” or “lose” that matchup.

    Keith keeps score in his own competition. You score it differently in yours. Either is valid to its own scorekeeper. Why force your scoring method on someone else, or insist that theirs is wrong? Ultimately, in the biggest game of all the market decides who the winner and the loser is — and, unlike our personal biases, both restaurants can “win” in that arena. But personal choices where one has a clear favorite are zero-sum, and people ought to be able to judge those any way they want to. They aren’t wrong for doing it differently than you do.

  24. Brian: Your last comment would make far more sense had you ended each of the last three paragraphs with the words “… to me.”

  25. brian in Tolleson

    That’s fair. I’m not necessarily neutral and actually didn’t think my comments above were exclusive to one chain being superior – although my opinion is obvious. I mostly have qualms with the criteria to judging which is best – the outcome is absolutely personal opinion.

    Using the criteria above, a really great burger joint located inside a meat packing plant would win any competition based upon meat quality. I heartily doubt anyone would ever frequent that place.

    I know lots of people who work very hard at creating an entire restaurant experience and I refuse to believe that their hard work is all worth nothing – all that matters is some line cook making 10 bucks an hour not screwing up simple things like overcooking eggs.

  26. I know lots of people who work very hard at creating an entire restaurant experience and I refuse to believe that their hard work is all worth nothing

    Straw man. No one here has said that the entire experience is “worth nothing;” I don’t pay extra for ambiance, but I pay extra for cleanliness, or great service.

    However, if the most important ingredient in your primary product is flawed, no amount of atmosphere, decor, service, or other frills will overcome it. A mediocre pizza in a perfect facsimile of an Italian trattoria will still be a mediocre pizza.

  27. brian in Tolleson

    Not a straw man. Reducing everything surrounding the patty to such little value that it only matters in extremes is absurd.

    Either way this discussion, to me, is about a way to judge a restaurant. We disagree and that’s okay.

    Hope you feel better. Also, have you considered that you’re having allergies? My wife and I have both been complaining a bit about that.

  28. “Not a straw man. Reducing everything surrounding the patty to such little value that it only matters in extremes is absurd.”

    The only one bringing up extremes here is you, Brian. The example of a restaurant in a meat-packing plant? That’s your example.

    Restaurants are about food. The nicest burger place in the world with a mediocre burger is not worth frequenting or giving your business, unless you’ve no other options. Again, since you seemed to miss it the first time: IT’S A BURGER JOINT!

    And I was extremely impressed with the cleanliness and decor of the Five Guys I was at, by the way. In-N-Out has nothing on Five Guys in that department.

  29. I, too, recommend Los Dos Molinos. Just make sure you don’t go to the one in Mesa, it’s terrible. Go to the one on Central. Other locations: downtown Phoenix, Springerville, Manhattan.

    For burgers:

    Delux
    Grind
    Fez

    For locally brewed beer and good food: Four Peaks.

  30. Just tried Five Guys for the first time (since San Diego now has one). I would agree that the burgers are better than In-n-Out (and I really liked the cajun fries!), but I don’t think it’s really an apt comparison. In-n-Out is a fast food place, which I wouldn’t call FG’s. In-n-Out has a drive through, the food gets to you much quicker, and In-n-Out costs at least 30% less than Five Guys. I like both of them a lot, and like I said Five Guys wins the burger comparison, but I feel like you’re comparing SP’s and RP’s here….

  31. I don’t think the food gets to you much quicker at In-n-Out; both places cook to order as far as I know. In-n-Out does cost less, but you get less product too – fewer fries and less meat.

  32. Keith,
    Any chance you dedicate a post to all your favorite Boston area eats now that you don’t have to compete for tables and time? I could be wrong, but I don’t remember any such list. Please pass on any recommendations from your time up here. Good luck in your new digs!

  33. Kieth, nice to see you chose Tia Rosa’s as a nice establishment. It’s only a couple of miles away from my family’s house and we have loved eating there for many years now. As for your burger debate, In-n-Out takes the cake, that may be because I’ve only had Five Guys once though. Definitely gonna give it another shot soon – it’s nice reading about local areas and hearing your reviews on them!

  34. Keith, sorry for the mis-spell on your name in my last comment – I know it’s Keith, not Kieth (stupid typos…)

  35. I agree, oreganos and Carolinas are must eats in Phoenix, but you Cant forget Chino Bandido’s, the mexican-asian mix is amazing and cheap. And for a good burger, a mainstay for ASU students is The Chuckbox on university. Great place!