I’ll be on ESPNEWS via phone just after the 2 pm announcement of the NL Cy Young award.
My notes column is up, leading off with a look at the reliever market and ending with a few lines on last night’s Top Chef episode.
I’m not sure I’ll get it done for tomorrow, but I’m hoping to have the Klaw 100 update ready for the morning.
DUDE – When you tell us to come here for non baseball stuff, we expect NOT TO HAVE TOP CHEF SPOILERS ON ESPN, especially as a Canadian who is stuck with the local Food Network’s moronic practice of airing episodes 2 weeks late.
I’m normally not a “spoiler whiner”, but NOT COOL, Klaw…
Hi Keith, haven’t read this morning’s blog entry, but I just wanted to drop in and say that I’ve really enjoyed them throughough the week, and hope you can keep up with them (if only occasionally) when Buster returns. I especially liked your explanation about wins the other day…not too elitist or “talking down to” readers who still look at wins as The Pitcher Stat.
Keith, nice Bad Idea jeans reference in the notes column. One of my all-time favorit SNL skits.
That was, of course, supposed to be favorite, not favorit.
I’d like to add that my RSS feed updates your ESPN article BEFORE the Dish…so even if you had posted on here that there was a Top Chef spoiler, I had no chance…
Sincerely, Canadian RSS subscribing Top Chef Klaw fans everywhere.
Yeah, I guess that puts it in perspective for me.
Keith, I found your ballot interesting due to your support for Vazquez (deserving) and Wainwright over Carpenter. Curious – was this in part due to a relative lack of innings pitched?
Keith, I think Bryan really has pulled ahead of his brother in this season of Top Chef. But I am pulling for Kevin. I want the fat kid to win for once.
I just saw your ballot for the NL Cy Young, and I am confused. I know you said that you voted for Vasquez because Carpenter did not have the innings…but here is my dilemma. Yes, Carpenter pitched 192.2 innings but this was over 28 starts. Now, that is roughly 6.88 innings a start. Vasquez was 6.85, and Wainwright was 6.85 as well.
So did you basically not list him because he missed a few starts on the DL? Averaging almost 7 innings per start is a good number, I would say, and I would not have let the DL time hurt my decision.
I suppose other things could have been more of a factor, like defense and K’s. Vasquez did have more K’s and a worse defense, so I see that side. I just would have rather heard that over the innings argument.
Anyway, have a great rest of the week and weekend.
Keith, how do you reconcile giving Javy a general nod for pitching in the East when Wainwright’s average opponent slashline was actually a tiny bit higher?
Vazquez: .254/.328/.403
Wainwright: .255/.330/.403
I’m genuinely curious how you justify leaving Carpenter off your ballot. He actually pitched more innings per start than Vasquez, and won more games than Lincecum.
Why does innings pitched count for anything, if Carpenter had more wins anyway? Aren’t wins more of an impact than total innings? Aren’t they more important than innings? Because the way I see it, pitching a lot of innings doesn’t win games, and winning is the greatest impact of all.
Anyway, have a great weekend.
I think after hearing how you voted for NL Cy Young, Vazquez over Wainwright and Carpenter? You should stick to just blogging about TV shows and leave baseball writing to people who know the game.
The uproar over your CY ballot seems excessive. There were 4 or 5 pitchers vying for 2nd and 3rd. You picked one of them, and gave fairly compelling evidence. I would have gone Wainwright-Carpenter, but all these guys are separated value-wise by about 5%. Who cares.
The more interesting thing to me is how your peers have quietly put their foot (feet?) down regarding your suggestion that ROY voting can and should incorporate future potential. I have read Neyer, Sheehan, and Kahrl all mention the notion and state that it should be based on performance only. No one has mentioned you by name, but it’s obvious they’re reacting to what you’ve been saying lately.
Hey Keith,
I just saw the SI article saying Wainwright got “jobbed”. I didn’t realize you were from Atlanta offering up the hometown support.
Keith, since Vazquez was awarded a 70,000 bonus for finishing fourth, and he only finished fourth because you voted him second on your ballot, I think it’s only sporting that he share some of that with you. You should bring this up to him, I’m sure he’d be willing to share…
Also, I would like to echo SA’s complaint about the Food Network showing Top Chef two weeks late, but I would tell him that he should just download them instead. If the FN is too dumb to show an elimination show in real time in the age of the internet, then they don’t deserve the advertising dollars that they receive from viewership.
And, as for Brian’s point, I think that Carpenter’s time on the DL is exactly why Keith had him fourth and while that might seem unfair, I would agree. It might not be Carpenter’s fault that he was injured, but the reality is that the award is meant to be for best pitcher and it’s hard to be the best if you aren’t actually on the field. Looked at from the point of a team or GM, for this past year, if you could have had Vazquez and his 32 starts or Carpenter for 28 starts and a sixth or seventh starter (ie. replacement level) for 4, which would you take?
Looks like Klaw should’ve put his moderation on for the weekend…
I am moderating. Jason can rant all he likes as long as he keeps it clean.
when did second place/off season awards suddenly matter so much?
Keith, you are the only writer on the four letter that I know of who responds to comments. The comments section attached to your piece is an FJM style goldmine. I know its one of those “too easy” type situations, but any chance you will be responding to some?
Jason – I was just pointing out that he had a season of 28 great starts…ok, maybe not all of them were great, but do you see my point? He had 4 starts less than Vasquez, but was just as effective (in my eyes). I would have rather have seen the DL excuse because it holds the saem weight as the Manny & CC argument from last year as they were traded. That is all…
Oh, and I would have picked Carpenter based on historical performance…especially if I were the Cardinals GM because they did not need him as much with Wainwright there…during the fake season…we will not speak of the playoffs and how my Vegas bet was ripped from my hands by a team that folded like a wet paper bag!!!
What do you have against St. Louis, Keith? Why do you continously bash St. Louis every opportunity you get? The 2006 postseason you constantly bashed the Cardinals. You’ve bashed the talent on every Cardinal team since seemingly forever. But see that was all fine until now. You really screwed Cardinal Nation this time. I really don’t know how guys like you even get to vote for baseball’s awards. But it is what it is and I (as well as millions of Cardinal fans) won’t let this go away easily.
To be fair, there are TWO Jasons, one who agrees (or more accurately is agnostic) with Keith’s decision, but also thinks it’s amusing that Vazquez earned a bonus of 70 grand because of that) and the other who seems a teensy bit upset by it…
Like a wet paper bag that then hit them right in the crotch is probably more accurate.
Brian – I totally get your point and I agree that Carpenter was great, I wish he’d pitched for my team, but I’d rather have had Vazquez, because he was as good (or nearly depending on how you interpret defense and quality of opponents, etc) and he made four more starts. My point being that you can’t not detract from Carpenter because he was on the DL. It sucks, and it might not be his fault, but just because he’s hurt doesn’t mean that the Cardinals don’t play the games. Anyhow, I’m checking out of this debate, since it makes it seem like I’m against Carpenter, when I’m not. As an ex-Jay I tend to have a soft spot for him…
How many times did these three pitchers give up only 2 earned runs in their starts?
Lincecum 21 of 32 (66%)
Carpenter 20 of 28 (71%)
Wainwright 26 of 34 (76%)
Stick that in one of your computer programs, or somewhere else, Keith!
I’m not sure I would have picked Vazquez as 2nd for the Cy Young (mostly because I never would have thought of him – all the more reason why I’ll never be able to vote for awards…), but I think Keith has very compelling evidence, and I can’t really argue with the reasoning.
I LOVE the St. Louis homer reaction over on the four letter, though. Just priceless!
It is strange to me that a voter doing research and looking at player specific stats (and not relying on stats tied to the players around him) would be considered “unconventional.”
Good work Keith Law. You know, to some you and Will Carroll will now be viewed similarly to the Magglio voters and Pedro non-voter in years past.
Is the Carp situation that difficult to understand? Cy Young is for Most Outstanding Pitcher. To me, that equates to “best”. Perhaps there is another interpretation, but I don’t know how you’d arrive at it. When I think, “best”, I think, “Whose season would I want if I was adding a guy to my team?” Well, I’d take Vasquez over Carp, in part because of the innings situation. If Carp’s peripherals stayed the same and he matched, or was close in innings, I’d go with him. But they weren’t. And it’s not as if KLaw is saying he’d rather have 220 good innings than 190 great innings. Vasquez had a superb season himself AND pitched more than Carp. What don’t people get?
The basic arguments against Keith Law’s ballot are a) the stats he used are wrong because the stats I use are right and b) Keith Law is an idiot.
The comments section of the ESPN piece is very enjoyable.
Are these Cardinals fans even real or is that people parodying Cardinals fans? I can’t even tell anymore with you people.
“Are these Cardinals fans even real or is that people parodying Cardinals fans? I can’t even tell anymore with you people.”
Maybe shout up to your mom (who is on the main level of the house) and ask her if they’re real Cardinals fans. I bet she’ll know. She probably was out playing baseball while you were playing nerd games with other nerds unless you were too nerdy to even have nerd friends. Nerd.
I’ve deleted most of the comments. It’s not the place for them, and most of them are ridiculously rude anyway. No fan base gets as nasty as quickly as St. Louis’. They’re also big fans of the homophobic insult.
yes, st louis has the nastiest rudest most unfriendly fans. travel to philly sometime buddy
I will give you that our sense of entitlement is absurb though. lincecum should be and is the winner. all this doesnt really matter
Watch the games. Stat geeks are ruining the game. So, both Cardinal pitchers are thrown out because of great defense behind them. Got it.
“Watch the games. Stat geeks are ruining the game. So, both Cardinal pitchers are thrown out because of great defense behind them. Got it.”
Is having 2 pitchers on the same team finishing 2nd and 3rd really being “thrown out”? By anyone?
(I don’t even know why I’m engaging. I have this need to hear people who make idiotic comments follow up with their logic, like one of us is going to atleast figure it out. And it never works. And, to be honest, I would have gone Wainwright-Carpenter-Vazquez because even with the innings variance, the replacement pitcher would have had to throw to something like a 6.50 ERA to make up the difference between Carpenter’s RA and Vazquez’s. So while there was a defensive difference (.007 DER), the park actually favored Vazquez this year and the slashlines (as I said above) were not as disparate as the divisions would indicate. But its not hideous and, most of all, its not some anti-Cardinal bias. It makes me wish I wanted Vazquez to finish 2nd just so I wasn’t taking the moran (google image it) side of things.)
“Dag nabbit, all these newfangled stats, watch the games geeks. Here’s why [my player] should’ve won.”
[Presents extremely team/park/defense-dependent stat(s)]
That’s humorous hhaha
Keith, at least end some of the suspense and tell us that Pujols made it SOMEWHERE on your MVP ballot? As long as you put him ahead of Yunel Escobar, I guess I won’t complain.
FACT: If Chris Carpenter had been second on Keith’s ballot, he would have finished in exactly the same place in the final voting as he did.
FACT: If Wainwright had been second and Carpenter third, they would have finished in exactly the same places in the final voting as they did.
FACT: Regardless of either of these things, Lincecum would still have won the Cy Young.
Keith.
At this point, sir, what you are doing is foolish by making little Internet potshots against any fanbase. You know what a “fan” is? A fan is a “fanatic” or someone who passionately defends their teams. How can you blame Cardinals fans for being upset? Any fan base would be ticked.
You are a writer who is supposed to be above all of this. Beat reporters often ignore the comments and move on. They are the professionals. Unfortunately, you are not and it shows worse on you than on the fans.
Really..the Tweets about a fan base? Stay Classy Keith Law.
If you aren’t clicking on Joe Pritchett’s blog link, you’re cheating yourself.
i believe if you explained how you left carp off the ballot might explain things..the whole world did not you
I think what’s surprised me most is that the St. Louis fans, who are reputed to be the most hospitable fans in baseball, are so completely around the bend about this. As though Keith ran over their puppy (repeatedly). I mean, there are three slots for Cy Young votes. Why is it considered an affront to the honor of St. Louis if Carpenter isn’t on a ballot?
It boggles the mind. (But as I said before, it is pretty amusing reading…)
If he has a vote, then he can do what he wants with it. While no baseball experts would agree with Vasquez on any ballot, he used his own methods to make his own vote. And make no mistake, Vasquez did have a great year. Cy Young worthy? Probably not.
My problem with him is his stereotypical comments on Cardinal fans. Being a national journalist, he has a to be responsible with his writing, or reactions to peoples views of your writing. A part of being a journalist is being able to deal with people being upset with your opinions, and the extreme people who will make extreme comments. Being thin-skinned and taking those extreme comments personal and attacking an entire fan-base is completely unethical, unprofessional, and irresponsible as a journalist.
Keith, I must disagree with the shots you’ve taken at Cardinals fans. Yes, we are disappointed that neither Carpenter nor Wainwright didn’t win. Yes, we are confused as to why you put Vazquez second on your ballot when many of your peers have said that this is a three-way race. Of course we are passionate about our team. That’s what we’re known for, and what every fan base should be known for. But you must remember that with every fan base there will be your rude and ignorant outliers, and unfortunately more often than not these are the folks that are more vocal, and that puts a negative light on everybody. I must say (respectfully) that you didn’t do yourself any favors with the fans by not giving the Cardinals any credit after the 2006 World Series, and giving minimal compliments, if at all, to the organization since then, as well as seemingly talking down to the fans here. And it doesn’t help either that you’re from Atlanta (I believe) and that it looked like a homer favor by putting Vazquez 2nd on your ballot. You have your reasons, and you have every right to have them and express them. However, the reputation that you’ve created for yourself with Cardinals fans, whether deliberately or not, has unfortunately landed you in hot water in St. Louis. There is a reason many of your peers call us the best fans in baseball. Don’t let a select few color the entire base.
Also, if you look in the comments section of Harry Schulman’s article for the San Francisco Chronicle explaining why he voted for Carpenter first over Lincecum (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/11/19/SPVT1AM41R.DTL) you’ll see that many San Franciscans (sp?) are not very pleased with him as well. It’s not just Cardinals fans who are disappointed. It’s just that Lincecum happend to get the Cy, so you don’t hear Giants fans complaining.
I, too, believe that you are discriminating against my favorite team in your Cy Young voting, Klaw. WHY DO YOU HATE PAUL MAHOLM?!
“Yes, we are disappointed that neither Carpenter nor Wainwright didn’t win.”
Wait. I thought you guys were super upset because they both lost.
“’Yes, we are disappointed that neither Carpenter nor Wainwright didn’t win.’
Wait. I thought you guys were super upset because they both lost.”
Good catch Dave. My mistake.
Keith –
Full disclosure – I am posting from St Louis, and I am a St Louis Cardinals fan. That being said, I had the pleasure of meeting you back in July at the Mike and Mike taping during the All Star Festivities. To my pleasant surprise, you were totally different than what I had expected you to be. To be honest, every time I heard you on a radio interview, you always came off as as a know-it-all that is set in their ways, and refuse to accept the other side of the argument. Anyway, we talked for a minute about the futures game, and that was that. You were very personable and friendly and I came home that evening with a totally different impression of you.
But then the next day I read your blog about how the hotel you stayed at didn’t give you the right type of pillow, and how the food place that was highly recommended to you ended up being terrible, and you even said you couldn’t get out of this city fast enough. Wow! We love you too Keith………. Gee, why don’t you tell us how you really feel.
Anyway, when I see comments from you saying that the St Louis fanbase is rude to you, and then you Tweet comments like “Do the Cardinals sell a pacifier with their logo on it” or something like that, obviously some people are going to take that to heart. I know you are probably just kidding around, and you are frustrated from dealing with hateful email, but as another poster said before me, I just wish you would be the better person, and not air out the dirty laundry. Show some class, and be above that. I’m sure I’m coming off as ultra sensitive, and perhaps I need a Cardinals pacifier, but I don’t like reading the digs at our city. Ok, so you don’t want to try the Italian food here when you visit because you live on the East Coast where you can get real Italian food. Ok that’s great – nevermind the fact that we have the famous Hill area which is a real Italian neighborhood that has authentic and great food. If you ever for any reason are forced to come back to our horrible and ugly city again, perhaps you could give it a try? Heck, just ask Yogi Berra. I’m sure he can tell you a thing or two about the area.
For what it’s worth – I’m perfectly fine with your Cy Young pick. Lincecum deserved it.
-Geoff