Mount Rapmore.
From Bill Simmons’ mailbag:
Q: If they were going to construct the Mount Rushmore of the rap industry, who would the four members be? Keep in mind that it is the four most influential people to the history of the industry, not necessarily the four best rappers.
–Adam, Hillsville, Va.
First of all, I have no idea why Adam asked Bill this instead of me. But Adam lives in some place called “Hillsville” in rural Virginia is probably still listening to his cassette version of To The Extreme, so we’ll cut him some slack.
Bill, however, gets no slack. His answers: Tupac (fine), Dr. Dre (also fine), Jay-Z (awful choice – the man can not rap), and the most overrated rapper ever, Notorious B.I.G.
B.I.G.’s legacy was preserved because he died just as he was becoming popular. He wasn’t a good technical rapper. His lyrics were beyond stupid, crude, and misogynistic, while never being particularly funny or clever. And his rise with Bad Boy Records represented the end of rap’s golden age and helped kill off West Coast gangsta-rap (although Warren G’s “Regulate” was that genre’s self-immolation moment). And maybe it’s just me, but I have never thought Jay-Z was any good as a rapper. His success mystifies me.
I don’t see how you can make any such list without including Rakim, one of the most influential rappers of all time and, I would argue, its best technical rapper, with outstanding flow and meter and plenty of inside rhymes. He’s cited as an influence by most of the best rappers of the 1990s and was revered enough in his prime to be referred to simply as the “R,” although I would be shocked if many current rap “stars” knew who he was.
And I’m also not sure how you can exclude Russell Simmons, who was a major figure in hip-hop’s formative years, co-founded (with Rick Rubin, who would be a good alternative) the first hip-hop record label, and was responsible for most of rap’s earliest cross-overs into the pop mainstream.
Honorable mention would go to Grandmaster Flash, the first rap artist inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and a highly influential rapper in early hip-hop who probably didn’t have the long-term career to merit inclusion.
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I say Flavor Flav…just because that would look pretty damn scary…his huge head looking down with those big glasses and huge clock…and that grille!!!!! Yeah he was not that good, but you have to agree on the shock value alone!
I strongly disagree with your comments on Notorious B.I.G., but having just woken up from a nap, am in no condition to accurately refute them. I will submit, for now, that there was a narrative value and honesty to much of his work that is too often overlooked (i.e. Juicy, Suicidal Thoughts). I love Jay-Z too, mostly because, like Biggie, he doesn’t always take the easy way towards proclaiming human worth; he just does that way to often.
My Mount Rushmore might not include either, though. It would go as follows: Rakim, Q-Tip, Scarface, and Nas. I’ll let you and others draw your own conclusions from that, but I must say that Rakim might just be the greatest of all-time. Might.
Just give Lil Wayne a few years, Keith. When/if he starts rapping about important things, he’ll be top 5. (He’s also a pretty excellent live rapper: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLSInzLsv88 ).
I’ll never get over the feeling that Tupac was on his way to starting a new black power movement. There are some interesting articles about feminist themes that were beginning to emerge in Tupac’s music before his death. Sad.
Keith, you continue to impress me with the scope of your knowledge.
I feel confident about 3 – Rakim, Tupac, and Simmons. I feel mildly uncomfortable making Dre #4, as I could swap him out for Chuck D., Nas, or Scarface on any given day, depending on my mood and alcohol content. But I suspect most days it would be him, with Chuck D. winning on days I listened to PE that day…
I didn’t understand his answers either. Clearly, Tupac has to be on there and I think Dr. Dre (or Easy-E) is very important.
I shuddered when he put Biggie on there. I knew it was coming and just shook my head at his overratedness.
I agree with Keith that you have to put someone like Grandmaster Flash on there and he’s probably the best choice from that era.
Russell Simmons is also a good choice, but what about Chuck D? Simmons dismissed him because he thought you’d then be throwing out the contributions from the rest of Public Enemy, but c’mon. That’s like making a list of best 90′s rock stars and not putting Kurt Cobain on there because you’d be slighting the other two members of Nirvana.
Jay-Z isn’t great but “99 Problems” is one of the best Hip-Hop songs ever. His producer? Rick Rubin.
My first thought was, what the hell where is Rakim? So I couldn’t agree with you more on that point. I cannot buy Jay-Z at all, and struggle with the selection of Dre despite his contribution to the rap game.
Russell Simmons doesn’t deserve to be there, what was his top ten song? If we are going to add producers than Premier, Rick Rubin and Timbaland all deserve to be mentioned. Not to sound like you here Keith, but this is a question about the top 4 rappers of all time not the top four people who have made contributions to the rap “game.”
I could go on forever but I am just going to give my to four.I say that KRS-One has to be added to the list. The list, in my eyes, is Rakim, KRS-ONE, Afrika Bambatta, and Tupac.
Thank you,
MC Search
That reminds me how you slipped in a Rakim lyric in one of your chats (“… fish, which is my favorite dish.”). I still refer to my consumption of rap music as “a stage,” but I fondly remember Rakim.
Lots of really good choices. I’ve no issue with Rakin or Russell Simmons (although Simmons is more deserving). I’m not sold on Tupac (although he was incredibly talented in many areas, not just music) and wouldn’t think of including Dre, especially since he wasn’t really the creative force behind the truly groundbreaking NWA. Grandmaster Flash needs a place on this Rushmore. So do Run DMC (I know, that’s 3 people but I’m taking a creative liberty) since they really brought rap to white people. So you’ve got Simmons, Flash, Run DMC, and that leaves one spot left. And I’d need to give it to Outkast (again, I know, that’s more than one person) since they really mastered ensemble rap (plus they had the smartest lyrics in rap music in the past 10 years).
Anyone else see Letterman last night?
“…number two: Applebee’s Across America Tour 2008.
“And, the number one Least Likely Topic To Show Up On Keith Law’s Personal Blog is…”
While I think all of your selections are excellent choices I would say that KRS-One might possibly deserve a spot. In the same way that Rakim introduced complex vocabulary and complicated metaphors to mainstream hip-hop, KRS was really the pioneer of the off-beat rhyming style (which is a misnomer since he really means something like rhyming across the beat or against the obvious grain of the beat). Thoughts?
Rakim – first person ever to rap like the beat was made to bend at his own will.
KRS-1 – the Teacher. No MC has ever been more full of himself that Kris, but nobody ever controlled a crowd like him. He was instrumental in promoting the culture of hip hop and preserving its history. Criminal Minded is one of the best albums of all time.
Kool Herc – Founder of the extended break beat and DJ’d the parties in the South Bronx that started it all.
The last one can be any number of people, including Russel Simmons, Q-Tip (my personal favorite of all time, Low End Theory is brilliant and it’s all him), Ice Cube, Chuck D, Nas, Dre and a bunch of others. Sad part is, hip-hop these days would only recognize a couple of these people.
I liked B.I.G.’s first album, but Life After Death sucked. Ricardo – Juicy paled in comparison to the rest of the album. It was a sad stab at radio play. Suicidal Thoughts was okay but not very complex. “When I die fuck it I wanna go to hell, cuz I’m a piece of shit it ain’t hard to fuckin’ tell. It don’t make sense, goin’ to heaven with the goodie-goodies, dressed in white, I like black Tims and black hoodies.” Nothing groundbreaking here.
Jay-Z has had some great moments but he’s not among the best ever. Incredibly overrated, but still good. Think of Jim Rice.
I miss hip hop music. There was a time that I knew it all and it wasn’t difficult to be a consumer of good music because it was the only rap that was popular. The shit that’s popular these days sucks, and I’m angry.
BTW, the tragedy of Jay-Z’s career is that he really can rap. His first album is phenomenal. It is full of interesting rhymes and complex metaphors. After that however, it is clear that with In My Livetime Vol. 1 and especially with In My Lifetime Vol. 2, when Jay really blew up, that he purposefully dumbed down his rhymes to appear to a more commercial audience.
I ALWAYS fricking forget about KRS-One…I’d put him in the Dre/Chuck D rotation, as he always meant much more than his eventual “recognition” amounted to…
I have not listening rap since ‘Ice Ice Baby’, and
Milli Vanilli, but I cannot agree with you more on Jay-Z. I have been listening him enough, however unwillingly, to be able to say that he never sounds great to me.
Mr. Law, I am not so sure you like Jody Watley’s song with Rakim’s rap.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9-mx-LmXavs
Oh, it was 1989.
How can anyone forget about KRS? If you put a gun to my head, I might have to pick him as the greatest MC of all time.
I’m surprised to see everyone dissing Dr. Dre. The case for D-R-E:
* Member of one of the most important rap acts in history.
* Wrote, performed, and produced an album that defined a subgenre and would have to be on any list of the top three albums in rap history.
* “California Love.”
* Launched the careers of Snoop Doggy Dogg and Eminem, as well as several lesser-known acts.
* Producer or co-producer on dozens of hip-hop albums, including works by Jay-Z, Kurupt, DJ Quik, 50 Cent, Easy-E, the Game, etc.
And he gets a solitary bonus point for “No Diggity.”
Keith, do you think there is some dynamic to where someone’s from in relation to which rappers they think are the greatest/most talented? I live in the South, and people can’t enough of crunk shit, especially Lil’ Wayne (currently most overrated rapper).
Rakim (no competition). Chuck D, Q-Tip, and Prime Minister Pete Nice.
Ok, maybe not the last one.
Bushwick Bill of the Geto Boys? But I’d include him only if his bust looked like the picture on the album cover where his girlfriend just shot him in the eye. I won’t quote it here in the interest of decency, but do yourselves a favor and read the “Name changes” section of Bushwick Bill’s wiki page.
Actually, my real 4th member would be the D.O.C., whose career was tragically derailed by a car accident. His debut is unbelievable.
Count me among those who thinks Tupac was even more overrated than B.I.G., too…he wasn’t even the 3rd best guy in the Digital Underground, and one of the guys ahead of him doesn’t even exist.
You can’t put Chuck D in. Chuck D said he wanted to make his group just like Run DMC. Throw in the fact that each member of DMC was legit, unlike in Public Enemy, and that DMC was the leader in rap blowing up in the 80′s, and there’s no possible way you could put Chuck D in.
I love “Son of Byford” as much as anyone, but I’ll take “Don’t Believe the Hype” instead.
I can’t decide which sucks more, though: teaming up with Aerosmith or Anthrax. Probably Aerosmith, since that remake singlehandedly revived the careers of those talentless hacks. Thanks!
Thank you on Biggie and Jay! I’ve only sort of recently started listening to rap at all, but I really dislike both of them. Their subject matter is really unlistenable for me, and the rest of their arsenal does not make up for it.
The only artists I really know a lot about and love are Talib Kweli and Kanye West’s first two albums/other productions. Kweli (particularly on Black Star and Reflection Eternal) is , I think, one of the most talented lyricists in the game, and he’s got decent flow too and unlimited breath. I know Kanye’s not as easy to accept, but I think he’s underrated as a rapper (well, he was until the horrific strings of lyrics and flows on Graduation) with good flow and decent, occasionally clever lyrics. And then he’s a fantastic producer. Even the Graduation beats aren’t really bad, and songs like “Heart of the City,” “Lucifer” (I can listen to Jay if the beats are good enough), “Gone,” “Get By,” “School Spirit” et cetera are out of this world beat-wise. His arrogance is frustrating, and I’m worried he may have descended into a place where he’ll cease to be the innovator, but I sure hope Graduation was just a bump in the road.
As to the Rapmore, does DJ Premier at least deserve a mention?
I can get behind Rakim and perhaps KRS-One (no one else), but I wouldn’t put them on my Mt. Rapmore. That would be like Mt. Rushmore having John Marshall or Benjamin Harrison on it. Influential yes, monumental no.
Cam’ron, Juelz Santana, Jim Jones, and JR Writer. Dipset! Dipset!
Seriously though, Jay-Z has his moments, but most of his rhymes and music are not top four material.
I’m a Biggie fan, but he has like two albums’ worth of material that’s been recycled like 10 times. Both Jay-Z and Nas have to be there before BIG — they have at least as many moments of greatness, plus long careers admittedly of mixed quality.
My “Mount Rapmore”:
-Rakim
-Dr. Dre
-Eminem
-Tupac
Rakim has to be there, for all the reasons everyone mentioned.
I understand some people not putting Dr. Dre up there, but consider his resume:
* Member of one of the most influential groups of all time
* (Basically) created the west coast sound
* Two all-time GREAT albums under his own name
* Top-notch producer
* Helped Snoop Dogg, Eminem, and 50 Cent make it big
I know I’m gonna catch heat for this, but I’ll put Eminem up there as well. It pains me to listen to his recent stuff, but the rhymes on his first three albums are incredible (and hilarious). The lyrics themselves are great, but the mix of anger, sadness, and insanity really puts him over the top for me.
I could put any one of about 10 guys in the last spot, but I’ll take Tupac. His lyrics aren’t the most complex, but his flow is great and, even though there is a TON of his material out there, it’s pretty remarkably consistent in terms of quality. As has been demonstrated in the past decade, you can put a Tupac verse over almost anything and it still sounds great. He also gets bonus points for the social commentary in (some) of his lyrics.
Honorable mention goes to Ghostface Killah, who doesn’t make it in terms of fame or influence, but has been top-notch for a long time, has charisma, and just knows how to make good music (sounds a lot like “knows how to win”, huh?). He probably doesn’t make Mount Rapmore even if we were picking 10 rappers, but he’s a personal favorite.
Good call on Rakim, Keith. Why does everyone forget him?
Biggie’s first album was a classic, his 2nd one was crap. That doesn’t put you on Rapmore.
Early in his career, Jay-Z was the sh!t. He’s mailing it in now.
I could live with this as Rapmore: ‘Pac, Dre, Chuck D, and Rakim. Ten years from now, we’ll probably have to add Andre 3000 and/or Big Boi as well, so leave plenty of room for expansion….
My personal rapmore would be: Q-Tip, Chuck D, KRS-One and Pac.
The anti-Rapmore: ‘nila Ice, either one of those Milli Vanilli clowns, either one of those PM Dawn suckas, and MC Hammer.
Oh crap, what about LL? Run DMC? Snoop/Eminem? Mos Def/Talib Kwali? Kanye?
Keith, isn’t this suppose to be a number nerd site with people that don’t do anything but work excel spreadsheets and read books? I think your mainstream baseball writers are going to be even more disturbed that you (and your readers) listen to rap too. Yikes.
And Grandmaster Flash needs to be on it. The first and greatest needs to have a place on the mountain.
This reminds me of the hilarious exchange between Bill Simmons and Chuck Klosterman over Pearl Jam, in which CK utterly dismisses Simmons out of hand (not that I know anything about the merits of this record):
Simmons: [F]or instance, when Pearl Jam released “Vitalogy,” I was absolutely furious and felt betrayed by them because they included so many crap songs. Years later, I see what they were trying to do — there’s no way they could have topped their first two albums, so they went in another direction, enjoyed themselves and probably said, “Screw it, let’s make this our third one.” I listened to it a few times and chose not to like it. Other PJ fans love it; in fact, when I made fun of “Spin the Black Circle” once, the PJ fans went ballistic. . . .
Klosterman: This is a curious question to respond to, particularly since “Vitalogy” is almost irrefutably the best Pearl Jam album, its only major problems being (a) it had an oversized, environmentally conscious jewel case, which makes it impossible to file, and (b) that it was titled “Vitalogy,” which sounds like the name of a riboflavin supplement.
Re: Matt (Boston)
“Not to sound like you here Keith, but this is a question about the top 4 rappers of all time not the top four people who have made contributions to the rap “game.”"
The original question specifically stated:
“Keep in mind that it is the four most influential people to the history of the industry, not necessarily the four best rappers.”
So yes, this IS a question about the top 4 individuals who contributed to the game.
and for what it’s worth, my Teddy Roosevelt on Mount Rapmore would be Osirus, Big Baby Jesus, Dirt McGirt… O.D.B.
My Mount Rapmore would include Will Smith, Vanilla Ice, Michael Winslow, and the Fat Boys.
I’ve got to be completely honest here Keith. I don’t think I would have thought of either you or Bill Simmons as my go to source on this issue.
Tupac – great raper, powerful lyrics, mad rap popular to the suburbs due his rebellious nature – and media coverage!
Dre – part of one of the greatest groups ever, launched a very solid career as a single artist, paved the way for Snoop, Eminem – became one of the first artist/producer mogul of the West Coast.
Simmons – no question what he has done for the game. The hip-hop mogul, activist and philanthropist while maybe not the founder of Def-Jam certainly set the standards. Look at the list of his clients over the years, Def-Comedy Jam, Phat-Farm etc … no brainer.
Rakim – also a no-brainer. Certainly one of the best talents ever, and also can bridge the gap between the East Coast and West Coast rap scene.
Left to right – Tupac, Dre, Rakim and Simmons
i would just put the wu-tang clan up and be done with it. ghostface’s new album is predictably awesome.
and yes, jay-z nearly single handedly ruined all of rap. he is terrible.
also dead prez needs some love too.
I never thought anything of Jay-Z until I heard “The Grey Album.” It’s pretty terrific. That said, it’s the only thing he’s done that I can stand.
And there’s no question in my mind who ruined rap: Sean Combs.
oops, forgot puffy for the anti-rapmore. better add mase on there for good measure as well.
chris, re: the grey album – jay-z can sound decent when he doesnt have anything to do with the production of the record. danger doom is legit.
and i’d also like to add that altho i also dont know adam from hillsville, but i do know rural virginia produces some of the most knowledgeable wiggers when it comes to rap, so i wouldnt doubt his credentials until you have a chance to meet him.
Jay-Z doesn’t deserve anywhere near as much blame as Puffy. I can’t stand the motherfucker for the role he played in the demise of hip hop.
Mase was actually decent until Puffy got a hold of him. Things would have been way different if he, Cam’ron, and Big L had stuck together.
Dangerdoom is good stuff, and so is Ghetto Pop Life, Danger Mouse’s album with Jemini.
I’ve spent entirely too much time thinking about the answers that Bill and Keith have given to this question and I’ve decided that I need to stop thinking about it for the sake of my sanity. Much like the Jim Rice Hall of Fame debate it largely comes down to perception which is why something like Mt. Rapmore could never happen. There’s no chance of reaching a consensus on who is most important and people would align themselves with a certain artist and refuse to budge. Can you imagine the debate that would ensue if someone were actually trying to build something like this? The internet, as well as my head, might explode.
I’m sorry, but Flash has to be the first face on Rapmore. If for no other reason than he completely changed what hip-hop was in the early 80s. Before Flash, hip-hop was party music used to get away from their daily problems. He was the first to use it as a medium to deliver “The Message” (which is still the most important/influential hip-hop track ever).
I agree with the stances shared on Rakim. He transcended lyrical structure and the studio sound.
Also agree there has to be a spot for Russell Simmons. Where would hip-hop be without Def Jam? I don’t think any of us know.
The last spot is tough. Cases can be (and have been) made for plenty of deserving artists. KRS-One was so influential in “conscious” (I hate that term) rap. Tupac obviously deserves consideration for his lyrical content and complexity, as well as the general Black Power attitude that many felt had been lost since the post-CR movement days.
However, when considering influence over the rap game, I think the final spot has to go to Eminem. Not only is he one of the most gifted rappers ever lyrically, but he has created as much backlash as anyone because of the race issue. Eminem brought hip-hop to a new audience, and helped reflect the idea that truly is hip-hop. The idea that hip-hop is more than a resultant of racial tension, but rather a resultant of our society’s problems as a whole and an outlet for anyone to express how they feel.
Regarding my previous post, if this competition is most influential in the DEVELOPMENT of hip-hop then obviously Eminem doesn’t belong. But if it is purely overall influence on the industry, then he belongs.
Also, it should be noted that Outkast is my favorite rap group ever; and Andre 3000 would be my vote for the best musician from the hip-hop era.
The more I think about this, the more I realize that the mythical “Mount Rapmore” should include all aspects of hip hop. A graffiti artist, breakdancer, DJ/Producer and an MC. Remember, it’s a culture that goes beyond rapping. In fact, the rapper was an afterthought in the beginning, more than anything just saying a few lines over a break beat (think of “to the beat yall” “it don’t stop yall” etc.) to keep the party going. Eventually the MC became the headliner to the point that nowadays many rap acts don’t even have a DJ on stage. Not having a DJ on stage is to hip hop purists as the wild card and interleague play are to baseball purists.
Will – While there will never be consensus on who should be on this mountain, it’s still fun to talk about it.
Rakim is an obvious choice (even if it wasn’t obvious to Bill), and I have to agree on KRS-ONE’s inclusion too… besides the influence he had on style and flow, one of the things that I always loved about KRS was that he put it all out there. You couldn’t listen to a BDP track without thinking, and you probably couldn’t listen to an entire BDP album without finding at least one political or cultural stance that you disagreed with. But he’d put it out there anyway.
The other 2, I definitely have to think about. It’s real tough to get down to 4!
If you are including a DJ, it has to be Kool Herc.
No love for the RZA?
Iron Lung knows where it’s comin from.
Method Man is as good as it gets. The Wu should be getting more attention here.
RZA – truth
If you’re calling it Mount Rapmore as in the obvious reference to Mount Rushmore, how can Dre NOT be on there? Has any one guy done more for rap, its introduction into mainstream music, and launching of mega careers than he did?
My first three
Dre
Rakim
Tupac
The final head would OBVIOUSLY have to go to Gusto. Why is everyone forgetting about him?! Straight outta Locash!
No love for the beastie boys, who were one of the pioneers of hip hop and really brought it to mainstream america (albeit because of their race). Add longevity to the mix, since theyve been rocking the mic for well over 20 years (with every album revolutionizing the industry), and i dont think anyone can top their contributions to hip hop/rap society.
Jason, While the Beastie Boys have been outstanding for years they have always been something of cultural scavengers rather than innovators. That doesn’t mean they aren’t important but I think that is why they don’t get mentioned in the influential category.
Mentioning the Beastie Boys just goes back to Keith’s point re: Russell Simmons.
Ok, I’m going to take a different angle on this debate. What if we try to actually match rap artists and their role in hip hop history to the actual presidents on Rushmore and their role in US History? My take:
Washington – Run DMC
The firsts. First president. First hip-hop artist to go platinum, first to have a top 10 single, first to get a grammy nomination. Maybe these guys weren’t the absolute best and brightest of their generation, but each is the most remembered/recognizable from their era. They were the early leaders and helped lead their young causes (America and Hip Hop respectively) to credibility and mainstream acceptance.
Jefferson – Dr. Dre
The visionaries. Am I comparing Dre’s work with NWA/The Chronic/Doggystyle to the Declaration of Independence? Absolutely. (Does that make Chronic 2001 the Louisiana Purchase?) Both were able to transcend their era and craft works that not only changed their world, but have held up and maintained their influence through the passage of time. Neither of their institutions would exist as the forces they do today without their vision and influence.
Lincoln – Tupac
The uniters. Each was a very controversial figure in a major divide. Both were killed before they were able see out their vision. Both were great leaders and orators (Gettysburg Address and Dear Mama?). Each was easily the largest figure in his era, and arguably the most influential ever.
Roosevelt – Eminem
The expanders. Young, outsized personalities that connected with and were widely loved by the masses in ways that no one else has been able to. Each used their abilities to accomplish many great things across different areas (Seriously, who wins the Nobel Prize while building the Panama Canal, creating the world’s greatest navy and laying the framework for anti-trust law?) and greatly increase the influence of their institution.
So there it is: Run DMC, Dre, Tupac, Eminem.
In no particular order (except chronological): Kool Herc, Rick Rubin (nearly interchangeable with Simmons), Rakim and Dre. The list is almost self-evident.
Keith,
Which RSS reader do you use?
Google Reader. How do I know that? I read it in the interview with the picture of him and the beach towel, discovered G-R, and now use it myself.
Just a random list of rappers needed to be considered: Rev Run, Rakim, KRS-One, Chuck D, Dre, Lil Wayne, Eminem, Snoop, 2 Pac, Jay Z, Nas, and someone mention Anthony Keidis and his Rap-Sing thing he does.
I mean, it’s cool. lol.
My 4: Dre, Em, Pac and Jay.
“I’m not here to start no trouble, I’m just here to do the Super Bowl Shuffle”!
The problem with Mount Rapmore is that their are no obvious comparisons. Kool Herc was the first DJ, but that isn’t quite a Washingtonian accomplishment. There is no obvious George Washington of rap, though Pigmeat Markham would be its John Hanson. Run DMC would be more like its James Madison or Andrew Jackson, Will Smith would be its Martin Van Buren and Vanilla Ice would have to be Franklin Pierce. Maybe you could make the argument Rakim is its Lincoln though, liberating the genre from simple structure and lyrics.
It occurred to me after the fact that Will Smith really is more John Quincy Adams than Van Buren. His tenure was short, he didn’t really belong and is much more noted for his other achievements. (Far too much time has been exhausted in the consideration of the subject.)
I can’t wait for keith’s next post…nothing worse than a bunch of white guys discussing rap.
I can’t stand Eminem, most of his songs are him bitching about his upbringing. boo hoo
nothing worse than a bunch of white guys discussing rap.
I know one thing that’s worse – saying that discussion of a subject is limited to people of a certain race. That is much worse.
Don’t worry – I’ll return to more white-people-appropriate topics, like books with words, in my next post.
DtFH, GZA, Tupac, Ice Cube
Maybe not the “best”, but those are my four favorites. Trying to label anything as the “best” in something as subjective as music is pretty difficult, and really isn’t very satisfying.
I can’t wait for keith’s next post…nothing worse than a bunch of white guys discussing rap.
Would it be inappropriate to pile on here? I don’t think so.
I don’t know what’s more offensive: the racial stereotyping implicit in your comment or the implicit assumption that the nobody involved in this thread is something other than white.
Do you assume people of other ethnicities are incapable of using the internet?
For real yo. FWIW I’m Puerto Rican and there are plenty of white guys who know a thing or two about hip hop and a shitload of blacks and latinos who couldn’t pick Rakim out of a lineup.
What’s next? A bunch of women and minorities in a chatroom about “being able to vote”?
Give me a break. People like what they like, they know what they know. Ethnicity allows different people different perspectives- each is as valid as the next.
Also, “I can’t stand Eminem, most of his songs are him bitching about his upbringing. boo hoo” is kind of ridiculous. As Jay said, people know what they know. People will generally write and rap about things based on their own experiences. He did have a tough uprising, as did most of the guys who could be included on Mount Rapmore, and they all “bitched” about it too. Or maybe we should include the likes of Souljah Boy since they can rap about more important issues, and are of the appropriate race I suppose.
Let me just suggest that we end the criticism of the comment about white people discussing rap here. We’ve said enough, and I don’t want anyone to become the target of so much opprobrium that they leave the site. Thanks.
On a hip hop note, are you familiar with Atmosphere? They are a Minneapolis based act that I’ve only recently stumbled onto after reading an interview by their MC, Sean Danley (aka Slug) and I’m really impressed.
I was just listening to De La Soul. Do they make the mountain?
De La merits strong consideration as one of the best hip hop groups of all time, but I don’t think their impact was strong enough to be considered for Mt Rapmore. Stakes is High is a classic album, released just as the music was starting to go heavily mainstream. I believe it was released on the same day as “Stillmatic,” Nas’ not so subtle attempt to gain radio play and wider consumer acceptance.
Sorry, I meant “It Was Written,” not “Stillmatic.”
Keith, I don’t know about a place on Rapmore, but what do you think of Gang Starr?
Gang Starr was always big with the critics, but I never could get into them. I’m not even sure how to phrase my criticism, but it seemed like they were trying too hard to write intelligent lyrics, so what came out was forced.
anyone here dig the pharcyde? their first 2 albums were good.
and before they ran out and got skanky fergie, the black eye peas had potential…
I’m just astonished that, based on his uber-Bostonian proclivities, Simmons didn’t try to sneak House of Pain in there.
Or Aerosmith.
House of Pain is from New York.
Simmons has now updated Mount Rapmore and (surprise, surprise) it is identical to Keith’s.
Sickeningly identical. Keith, we need a response from you. I dying to hear your take on the coincidence.
I think it’s just that, a coincidence. Bill told me he’d never seen it (or this blog) before, and his word is good enough for me.
My man, you are so dead wrong on this one. This is as bad a call as the one the Yankees made in the sandwich round when Weatherford, Webb, and Mellville were all available. I’m going to come back at you with some of his lyrics, but I’ll tell you now that in terms of flow an delivery, he was one of the best of all time. He also practically invented the style of rapping that is the basis for all of the dirty south stuff, as well Dre’s later records, and Eminem.
Grandmaster Flash is not a rapper. That said:
DJ Kool Herc, for inventing the breakbeat.
Grandmaster Flash, for inventing the developing scratching after Grand Wizard Theodore discovered it could be used as another form of rhythm.
Afrika Bambaataa, for introducing techno-style synths to hip-hop.
Marley Marl, the very first “super-producer”, who also explored the practice of sampling like no one ever had before.
Keith, where do you recommend starting with Rakim? Is there any particular album that stands above the rest? Thanks.
Probably the greatest hits package, The Book of Life
, which came with his first solo album. If you want to buy individual songs, go to Disc 2 and buy tracks 1 through 5, 8, 10, and 15, and maybe 9.